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Apr 30 15:25:44 <asciilifeform>	they do get swapped out for new muppet regularly.
Apr 30 15:25:49 <asciilifeform>	when they wear out.
Apr 30 15:26:29 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: Another thing is that neither one of them has anything to gain from the US.
Apr 30 15:26:35 <asciilifeform>	this creates illusion of 'agenda ended'. they have them in usa also, same algorithm.
Apr 30 15:27:05 <XRevan86>	Zelensky is "suspected" to collude with an oligarch Kolomoysky
Apr 30 15:27:13 <XRevan86>	his interests are in Ukraine
Apr 30 15:27:23 -viera/#techrights-	Tux Machines: Programming: Microsoft Yardsticks, Crypto Puzzle, Go and Python http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/123385 [https://pleroma.site/objects/dfa2fb84-1fd6-41ff-b0b2-779954656642]
Apr 30 15:28:42 <asciilifeform>	interest of oligarch are where the money is parked, rather than the geography that he extracted it from
Apr 30 15:29:49 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: The closest money bin to Ukraine is Russia.
Apr 30 15:30:08 -viera/#techrights-	Tux Machines: GNU and GPL Picks http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/123386 [https://pleroma.site/objects/1a3b3f40-aa97-4f55-8e8c-f1bdb1154c21]
Apr 30 15:30:47 <XRevan86>	There are shady things going on with oil transit in Ukraine.
Apr 30 15:30:54 <asciilifeform>	XRevan86: so idea is, he keeps his in moscow and not zurich ?
Apr 30 15:31:34 *	asciilifeform cannot prove that this is not true, but it is on approx. same believability level as 'here is a dog with six legs'
Apr 30 15:31:38 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: The idea is the US being good for Ukrainian business is limited.
Apr 30 15:33:00 <asciilifeform>	it's a banana republic (and without bananas) , what business.
Apr 30 15:33:34 -viera/#techrights-	Tux Machines: OSS Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/123387 [https://pleroma.site/objects/3a8aa207-c118-4129-b174-868060264218]
Apr 30 15:34:39 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: It's a relatively large country with Soviet industrial legacy.
Apr 30 15:34:56 <XRevan86>	It's just as much a banana republic as the Russian Federation.
Apr 30 15:35:00 <asciilifeform>	as i understand most of it already cut into metal and sold to foreigners
Apr 30 15:35:05 <asciilifeform>	exactly like '90s ru
Apr 30 15:35:35 <asciilifeform>	( ru only still 'in business' because had more to cut and sell to start with )
Apr 30 15:36:45 -viera/#techrights-	Tux Machines: KDE/Qt: Qt 5.13 Plan, Kdenlive and Craft http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/123388 [https://pleroma.site/objects/b5b7ba94-0d01-4eeb-9cbf-14b0a808db40]
Apr 30 15:37:17 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: Russia is still being cut and sold.
Apr 30 15:37:30 *	asciilifeform knows this
Apr 30 15:37:58 <asciilifeform>	that's what is banana republic. when the people who live there are , in economic terms, 'extra'
Apr 30 15:38:05 <asciilifeform>	resource extractor does not need them for anything
Apr 30 15:39:17 <XRevan86>	Russian state-affiliated oligarchs like to re-invest elsewhere.
Apr 30 15:39:43 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: Sounds like Russia is more of a banana republic than Ukraine.
Apr 30 15:40:00 <asciilifeform>	of course. has more 'bananas'.
Apr 30 15:40:35 <XRevan86>	that we can agree on
Apr 30 15:40:41 <asciilifeform>	not all petro pumped out yet, not all soviet-era specialists moved to washington yet, etc
Apr 30 15:40:44 -viera/#techrights-	Tux Machines: Servers: #Kubernetes , Red Hat, #OpenStack , #IndieWebServer and More http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/123389 [https://pleroma.site/objects/c7cd207f-ba6c-49f0-b5dc-229dcafa7cd8]
Apr 30 15:42:08 -viera/#techrights-	Tux Machines: Audio: Linux Journal and Linux Voice Introduction http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/123390 [https://pleroma.site/objects/3f16729a-5f0a-403d-95c0-6573aa766575]
Apr 30 15:43:00 <asciilifeform>	interest of washington in ukr is not to pump anything out as such, but to keep open wound ( and in the end get new place to put rockets, as in e.g. romania. )
Apr 30 15:43:15 <XRevan86>	That's kind of system that was designed around cronyism and kompromat.
Apr 30 15:44:20 -viera/#techrights-	Tux Machines: Leftovers: Debian, Kubuntu, RcppArmadillo and VolksPC OS http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/123391 [https://pleroma.site/objects/7c2eaca3-8a35-4374-802b-36398b8d9893]
Apr 30 15:52:37 <asciilifeform>	re: earlier rms -- i am curious over what 'he has influence.' first he lost hurd, and let usurper linus into driver's seat , who then compromised with enemy ( permitted closed drivers for iron, and today even more interesting things ) . then rms lost control of even his original softwares - gcc, emacs, went to enemy.
Apr 30 15:53:13 <asciilifeform>	exactly analogous to shah of iran. sits on throne, while country walked away.
Apr 30 15:53:54 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: He *has* control over GNU.
Apr 30 15:54:21 <asciilifeform>	XRevan86: when was last time he sued in court a gpl violator and won ?
Apr 30 15:54:27 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: And I meant it in a way of him being heard.
Apr 30 15:54:33 -viera/#techrights-	Tux Machines: Links 30/4/2019: Fedora 30 Available and Ubuntu 19.10 Release Date Noted http://techrights.org/2019/04/30/fedora-30-available/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/f7aae57e-349b-4a19-a424-44165bf87efa]
Apr 30 15:56:05 <asciilifeform>	or , for instance, where today can buy computer on which can run 100% gpl stack ? he let this, also, walk away.
Apr 30 15:56:41 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: What did you expect him to do?
Apr 30 15:56:55 <XRevan86>	buy a computer manufacturer?
Apr 30 15:57:00 <asciilifeform>	organize hardware manufacture, yes
Apr 30 15:58:08 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: Not an easy feat. He's not the only one with this goal, yet somehow…
Apr 30 15:59:01 <asciilifeform>	mp_en_viaje and asciilifeform , did it. started with small device, http://nosuchlabs.com/hardware.html ; in not too long will make own silicon
Apr 30 15:59:02 -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-	nosuchlabs.com | No Such lAbs
Apr 30 15:59:48 <asciilifeform>	it isn't impossible to do, and actually cheap in comparison to some of the ineffective works of rms & co.
Apr 30 16:00:29 <asciilifeform>	XRevan86: you can have a reasonably modern chip made for cost of toyota.
Apr 30 16:00:31 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: I'll stay sceptical for now.
Apr 30 16:00:45 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: And who will care about it?
Apr 30 16:01:35 <asciilifeform>	plenty of people, who don't want washington in their comp. the smarter bitcoin users, for example.
Apr 30 16:02:11 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: A random number generator…
Apr 30 16:02:18 <asciilifeform>	we sold out 2 print runs of FG device, which is much more specialized ( i wasn't certain anyone would buy at all, when designed it )
Apr 30 16:02:36 <XRevan86>	only a millimetre away from a modern laptop
Apr 30 16:03:17 <asciilifeform>	and whole centimetre away from space station, yes
Apr 30 16:04:01 <asciilifeform>	for some reason the 'free soft' people are chronically allergic to entire idea of making iron
Apr 30 16:04:07 <asciilifeform>	large or small
Apr 30 16:04:16 <asciilifeform>	imho this is mistake.
Apr 30 16:05:03 <asciilifeform>	if they had started with iron, we would not today have the idiocy with 'closed driver', microshit 'secure boot', etc.
Apr 30 16:05:25 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: It is not like no attempts were made.
Apr 30 16:05:44 <asciilifeform>	i'm not aware of any attempts ( will not count the idiocy with ibm cpu )
Apr 30 16:06:20 <XRevan86>	including upcoming Librem devices
Apr 30 16:06:42 <asciilifeform>	did they promise a machine where full source of cpu, chipset, etc. is public ?
Apr 30 16:06:48 <XRevan86>	not completely free, but a…
Apr 30 16:06:52 <asciilifeform>	as in, i can go to taiwan and have it made
Apr 30 16:06:56 <asciilifeform>	if not, then no attempt.
Apr 30 16:07:13 <asciilifeform>	'not completely free' is like 'not completely pregnant'
Apr 30 16:07:44 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: By the way, what do you think about Elbrus?
Apr 30 16:08:02 <asciilifeform>	i've been trying to buy one for several years now. and with help of mp_en_viaje. so far 0 result.
Apr 30 16:08:04 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: Or more to the FOSS point, about RISC V
Apr 30 16:08:10 <asciilifeform>	they do not sell to foreign countries.
Apr 30 16:08:43 <asciilifeform>	XRevan86: riscv terrible architecture. no flags, and because of this cryptography very slow, cannot write efficient 'bignum'.
Apr 30 16:08:50 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: Ah, partially explains their staggering commercial success
Apr 30 16:09:10 <asciilifeform>	x86 also 'commercial success' while being shit.
Apr 30 16:09:21 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: that was about elbrus
Apr 30 16:09:39 <asciilifeform>	i have yet to see a working elbrus offered for sale where i can buy it, for any price.
Apr 30 16:09:57 <XRevan86>	hard to make money and reject customers at the same time
Apr 30 16:10:03 <asciilifeform>	even if found, as i understand it is full of 'licensed' hardware from americans.
Apr 30 16:10:09 <asciilifeform>	the network card, chipset, etc.
Apr 30 16:10:18 <asciilifeform>	does not come with source for cpu, either
Apr 30 16:10:35 <asciilifeform>	my impression is that it is 'golden toilet' for ru military market.
Apr 30 16:10:47 <asciilifeform>	in china they made a similar machine, 'dragon'
Apr 30 16:11:00 <asciilifeform>	also not buyable by anyone who isn't chinese general.
Apr 30 16:11:11 <asciilifeform>	and also 0 published sources.
Apr 30 16:12:38 <asciilifeform>	when i say 'fully open', will illustrate : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/sovok/1801BM2_schematics.djvu example.
Apr 30 16:12:48 <XRevan86>	> sovok
Apr 30 16:13:16 <asciilifeform>	correct. where chip came with document that tells where the transistors are and why.
Apr 30 16:13:19 <asciilifeform>	that's what means 'open'.
Apr 30 16:14:12 <asciilifeform>	my 'mk61' calculator came with schematic. which pc comes with schematic ?
Apr 30 16:14:52 <asciilifeform>	when rms & the other americans who grew up in forest, with wolves, say 'open', they have no idea what the word means.
Apr 30 16:15:45 *	TechrightsBot-tr has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
Apr 30 16:15:55 <XRevan86>	Ah, so that's *from* sovok, understood
Apr 30 16:16:12 <asciilifeform>	correct, bk / dvk cpu
Apr 30 16:16:17 <asciilifeform>	possibly XRevan86 is familiar
Apr 30 16:16:25 *	scientes (~scientes@unaffiliated/scientes) has joined #techrights
Apr 30 16:17:48 <XRevan86>	which dvk is that?
Apr 30 16:18:03 <XRevan86>	> mk61
Apr 30 16:18:03 <XRevan86>	ah
Apr 30 16:18:32 *	TechrightsBot-tr (~TR@199.19.78.19) has joined #techrights
Apr 30 16:18:49 <asciilifeform>	1801 ?  МС1201
Apr 30 16:19:06 <asciilifeform>	and several other machines ( industrial control, army, etc )
Apr 30 16:19:24 <XRevan86>	К1801ВМ2
Apr 30 16:19:39 <asciilifeform>	last i knew was still being made in zelenograd.
Apr 30 16:19:54 <XRevan86>	1982…
Apr 30 16:19:59 <asciilifeform>	unless factory was sawed apart in recent years
Apr 30 16:20:04 <asciilifeform>	XRevan86: as recently as 2009
Apr 30 16:20:16 <asciilifeform>	it's a perfectly good 16bit cpu with zero washington in it.
Apr 30 16:20:35 <asciilifeform>	you don't need 32 core 'pentium' for controlling rocket.
Apr 30 16:22:33 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: Are you registered on LOR?
Apr 30 16:23:54 <asciilifeform>	i do not know what it is?
Apr 30 16:24:09 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: Linux.org.ru
Apr 30 16:24:46 <asciilifeform>	i think i registered an acct several years ago, to make a comment somewhere
Apr 30 16:24:56 <asciilifeform>	but do not remember now when and where
Apr 30 16:26:21 <asciilifeform>	possibly it had to do with the http://trilema.com/2015/on-how-the-factored-4096-rsa-keys-story-was-handled-and-what-it-means-to-you/ incident .
Apr 30 16:27:52 <asciilifeform>	when mp_en_viaje and i found the breakable keys, washington cooked up a quick 'rebuttal' and spread it around the net, and linux.org.ru published a translated copy 'as fact' , and iirc i left comment ( probably was deleted immediately, i did not look )
Apr 30 16:29:44 <asciilifeform>	XRevan86: now i have to go, will be back later.
Apr 30 16:30:04 <XRevan86>	asciilifeform: Found a thread on the topic, didn't find thee
Apr 30 16:32:06 <XRevan86>	and it's the only thread on the topic
Apr 30 16:32:21 <XRevan86>	https://linux.org.ru/forum/talks/11617257
Apr 30 16:33:49 -viera/#techrights-	Tux Machines: Android 9 Pie OS for Raspberry Pi 3 Gets Yalp Store and Evie Launcher http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/123392 [https://pleroma.site/objects/a761c339-a463-47a1-b6f3-c04f9efa9bbb]
Apr 30 16:35:05 -viera/#techrights-	Tux Machines: Fedora 30 Performance Is Moving In The Right Direction But A Lot Of Untapped Potential http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/123393 [https://pleroma.site/objects/ce389f40-0ff0-472a-93ec-5b5d0c034e9a]
Apr 30 16:36:16 -viera/#techrights-	Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/123394 [https://pleroma.site/objects/96e2f207-8bdb-4633-9859-e5e9f2f1fbcb]
Apr 30 16:44:32 *	realtime (~root@unaffiliated/realtime) has joined #techrights
Apr 30 16:46:14 *	MinceR gives voice to diana_coman TechrightsBot-tr scientes asciilifeform
Apr 30 16:46:14 *	MinceR gives voice to realtime
Apr 30 16:46:59 <MinceR>	30 172356 <+oiaohm> By hey its the English mangled mess.
Apr 30 16:47:05 <MinceR>	"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
Apr 30 16:47:10 <MinceR>	--James D. Nicoll
Apr 30 16:51:54 <XRevan86>	and also complicated spellings of existing words by mistake
Apr 30 16:52:38 <XRevan86>	I am impressed by iland being respelled as island
Apr 30 16:53:12 <MinceR>	:>
Apr 30 16:53:44 <MinceR>	there are also those extra u-s and swapped er-s
Apr 30 16:53:57 <XRevan86>	and "numb"
Apr 30 16:54:10 <XRevan86>	> The final ‹b› is a later addition to the spelling; it was never pronounced, and did not appear in the original word.
Apr 30 16:54:17 <MinceR>	:>
Apr 30 16:54:53 <XRevan86>	MinceR: That's just Frenchness
Apr 30 16:55:04 <MinceR>	more like imitating the french
Apr 30 16:55:26 <XRevan86>	For instance, metre is from French
Apr 30 16:55:40 <XRevan86>	<- Latin metrum <- Greek metron
Apr 30 16:56:08 <MinceR>	in some of its senses it's "meter" even in UK english
Apr 30 16:56:13 <MinceR>	just to make things easier
Apr 30 16:56:27 <XRevan86>	MinceR: Just like "while" in some sense is "hwile"
Apr 30 16:56:41 <MinceR>	huh?
Apr 30 16:56:53 <XRevan86>	sound swap is not an uncommon phenomenon
Apr 30 16:57:20 <XRevan86>	MinceR: I am actually puzzled by my it is spelled this way.
Apr 30 16:57:21 <MinceR>	hwile is Old English
Apr 30 16:57:25 <XRevan86>	* by why
Apr 30 16:57:38 <XRevan86>	MinceR: But it was *never* pronounced like "while"
Apr 30 16:57:48 <XRevan86>	always hw
Apr 30 16:57:58 <XRevan86>	that in most dialects shifted to just w
Apr 30 16:58:02 <MinceR>	i've never heard it pronounced it hw
Apr 30 16:58:22 <XRevan86>	MinceR: Maybe you didn't notice :)
Apr 30 16:58:37 <XRevan86>	MinceR: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:En-ne-while.ogg
Apr 30 16:58:38 -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-	commons.wikimedia.org | File:En-ne-while.ogg - Wikimedia Commons
Apr 30 16:58:52 <XRevan86>	MinceR: It is common in South American accents.
Apr 30 17:00:06 <XRevan86>	Fun fact: the word for a minute in Ukrainian is khvylyna
Apr 30 17:00:24 <XRevan86>	hwile-ina
Apr 30 17:00:25 <MinceR>	south americans are uncommon here
Apr 30 17:00:39 <MinceR>	and kh is a different sound from h
Apr 30 17:01:20 <XRevan86>	MinceR: I followed conventional transliteration
Apr 30 17:04:03 <XRevan86>	MinceR: https://youtu.be/zh7wg6OMJkE?t=3 pronunciation example
Apr 30 17:04:04 -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-	Хвилина слави - YouTube
Apr 30 17:05:04 <XRevan86>	And yes, it is from English
Apr 30 17:08:04 <XRevan86>	at least according to some sources I may be remembering wrong (:
Apr 30 17:08:47 <XRevan86>	but it is from a Germanic language for sure
Apr 30 17:13:03 <MinceR>	XRevan86: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wine-whine_merger
Apr 30 17:13:04 -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-	en.wiktionary.org | wine-whine merger - Wiktionary
Apr 30 17:13:11 <XRevan86>	MinceR: that's the one
Apr 30 17:13:39 <MinceR>	the unmerged option is pretty uncommon apparently
Apr 30 17:13:46 <XRevan86>	also Scottish
Apr 30 17:14:12 <MinceR>	30 230403 <+XRevan86> MinceR: https://youtu.be/zh7wg6OMJkE?t=3 pronunciation example
Apr 30 17:14:17 <MinceR>	still sounds more kh than h to me
Apr 30 17:14:31 <MinceR>	isn't soft 'h' rare in eastern slavic languages anyway?
Apr 30 17:14:44 <XRevan86>	MinceR: It depends on what you mean by soft
Apr 30 17:15:12 <XRevan86>	https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Ru-%D1%85%D0%B8%CC%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C.ogg soft, as in slender
Apr 30 17:15:55 <MinceR>	soft as in what russians usually transliterate with 'g' :>
Apr 30 17:16:11 <XRevan86>	MinceR: There's a sound represented by "h" in transliterations…
Apr 30 17:16:19 <XRevan86>	https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Uk-%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE.ogg
Apr 30 17:16:21 <XRevan86>	there it is
Apr 30 17:16:32 <MinceR>	yeah, that's the one
Apr 30 17:16:32 <XRevan86>	MinceR: ^ That's the one.
Apr 30 17:16:54 <XRevan86>	MinceR: Does that sound anything like an English h?
Apr 30 17:17:05 <MinceR>	i think so
Apr 30 17:17:35 <XRevan86>	gm…
Apr 30 17:18:06 <MinceR>	:)
Apr 30 17:20:35 <XRevan86>	MinceR: https://youtu.be/Z7cs36z3uNg?t=94
Apr 30 17:20:36 -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-	Stargate SG1 - "Heroes" Richard Woolsey's Economics of the SGC - YouTube
Apr 30 17:20:59 <XRevan86>	"what's" – barely recognisable, but "why"
Apr 30 17:22:17 <XRevan86>	MinceR: So I'm pretty sure you in fact were exposed to that kind of pronunciation before ;)
Apr 30 17:22:25 <XRevan86>	… and didn't notice
Apr 30 17:23:19 <MinceR>	i still don't hear the 'h' in 'what' and i'm not sure what i'm hearing in 'why'
Apr 30 17:23:46 <XRevan86>	MinceR: He starts the "what's" with breathing in, so it colludes with "hw"
Apr 30 17:24:46 <XRevan86>	MinceR: But you don't hear ŭ-a-j there, right? ;)
Apr 30 17:25:28 <XRevan86>	as I hear it, he barely even makes that ŭ out at all
Apr 30 17:28:15 <MinceR>	i don't think i can cut it into such units
Apr 30 17:29:08 <XRevan86>	MinceR: Maybe what's stopping me from seeing γ sound as close to the English h is that it is voiced.
Apr 30 17:32:23 *	XRevan86 went to check how modern Greeks pronounce γ
Apr 30 17:32:45 <XRevan86>	https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Ell-Genos.ogg
Apr 30 17:32:59 <XRevan86>	I… did not expect that
Apr 30 17:34:53 <XRevan86>	hosspadi…
Apr 30 17:35:27 <XRevan86>	( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Ru-%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B8_%28%C9%A3%29.ogg )
Apr 30 17:37:23 <XRevan86>	Ancient Greek: g, Byzantine Greek: gh / h, Modern Greek: j
Apr 30 17:37:54 *	XRevan86 looks for a pronunciation example of гамма
Apr 30 17:38:52 <XRevan86>	maybe I should just look for a Greek αλφαβητ
Apr 30 17:41:00 <XRevan86>	https://youtu.be/UBkmIonys0I?t=23 that works
Apr 30 17:41:01 -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-	Τα γράμματα της αλφαβήτας - The letters of the Greek alphabet - YouTube
Apr 30 17:41:31 <XRevan86>	delta → thelta
Apr 30 17:41:48 <XRevan86>	I'm not even surprised at this point
Apr 30 17:43:39 <XRevan86>	MinceR: Does that sound in Greek sound like English h?
Apr 30 17:44:02 <MinceR>	imo it doesn't
Apr 30 17:46:18 <XRevan86>	https://youtu.be/RQF6dZZqX5I?t=55 and here?
Apr 30 17:46:20 -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-	Learn The Modern Greek Alphabet - YouTube
Apr 30 17:46:51 <XRevan86>	explains the deal with it turning into "j" too